;)
Sunday
Jul072013
The Commentariat -- July 8, 2013
Daniel Strauss of the Hill: "Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) called the ouster of Egyptian President Mohammed Morsi a coup d’etat and pressed the Obama administration to suspend aid to the country on Sunday." ...
... CW: Read today's News Ledes & you'll likely find yourself agreeing with McCain.
Jennifer Valentino-Devries & Siobhan Gorman of the Wall Street Journal: "The National Security Agency's ability to gather phone data on millions of Americans hinges on a secret court ruling that redefined a single word: 'relevant.' This change -- which specifically enabled the surveillance recently revealed by former NSA contractor Edward Snowden -- was made by the secret Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, a group of judges responsible for making decisions about government surveillance in national-security cases. In classified orders starting in the mid-2000s, the court accepted that 'relevant' could be broadened to permit an entire database of records on millions of people, in contrast to a more conservative interpretation widely applied in criminal cases, in which only some of those records would likely be allowed, according to people familiar with the ruling." CW Note: the article is firewalled. You won't get it via the link provided unless you're a WSJ subscriber; if you're not, copy & paste the title "Secret Court's Redefinition of 'Relevant' Empowered Vast NSA Data-Gathering" into a Google search box. ...
... James Risen of the New York Times: "A privacy rights group plans to file an emergency petition with the Supreme Court on Monday asking it to stop the National Security Agency's domestic surveillance program that collects the telephone records of millions of Americans. The group, the Electronic Privacy Information Center, says it is taking the extraordinary legal step of going directly to the Supreme Court because the sweeping collection of the phone records of American citizens has created 'exceptional circumstances' that only the nation's highest court can address.... Alan Butler, a lawyer for the group, said the judge 'lacked the authority to require production of all domestic call detail records.' He noted that the Patriot Act provision cited by the FISA court required that the business records produced be 'relevant' to an authorized national security investigation. 'It is simply implausible that all call detail records are relevant,' Mr. Butler said." ...
... Ian Traynor of the Guardian: "Britain has blocked the first crucial talks on intelligence and espionage between European officials and their American counterparts since the NSA surveillance scandal erupted. The talks, due to begin in Washington on Monday, will now be restricted to issues of data privacy and the NSA's Prism programme following a tense 24 hours of negotiations in Brussels between national EU ambassadors. Britain, supported only by Sweden, vetoed plans to launch two 'working groups' on the espionage debacle with the Americans.'" ...
... John Stanton of BuzzFeed profiles Judge Reggie Walton, the chief judge of the FISA court. ...
... In a Washington Post op-ed, Daniel Ellsberg argues that Ed Snowden made the right call when he fled the U.S. ...
... Peter Orsi of the AP: Cuban President "Raul Castro stood shoulder-to-shoulder Sunday with Latin American countries willing to take in NSA leaker Edward Snowden, but made no reference to whether Cuba itself would offer him refuge or safe passage. Venezuela and Bolivia both made asylum offers to Snowden over the weekend, and Nicaragua has said it is also considering his request." ...
... Charles Pierce ties Eric Lichtblau's piece on the extreme reach of the FISA court (see yesterday's Commentariat) to President Obama's "preposterous public claim that the rubber-stamp FISA court qualified as 'oversight.'" CW: either President Obama is wilfully ignorant of the court's rulings & practices -- which is possible -- or he lied on the teevee to you & me. ...
... T. Steelman of Addicting Information (a liberal site) questions Ed Snowden's motives. Steelman reviews some of Snowden's 2009 chatroom entries in which he railed against Social Security: "they [seniors] wouldn't be fucking helpless if you weren't sending them fucking checks to sit on their ass and lay in hospitals all day"; various Obama policies; leakers: "those people should be shot in the balls"; and chatters who disagreed with him: "I hope you're killed by a drunk driver on Halloween." Snowden also expressed his support for warrantless wiretapping, Ron Paul & the NRA. Steelman finds it curious that Snowden's views changed when the administration changed from Bush to Obama. "Is this whole thing a ruse to make the President look bad? If so, who is funding it -- who is paying for all his travel and hotels? Or is Edward Snowden, a man who has completely destroyed his own life, just stupid?" ...
... CW: I wrote a comment on this earlier, but this site was hacked & the comment deleted. This is the second time this particular hacker has hacked this site. I didn't figure it out the first time, but I get it now. ...
... Craig Whitlock of the Washington Post has an interesting piece on a Somali-American (he recently acquired U.S. citizenship), who has been a target of "a shadowy Pentagon counterpropaganda campaign." The FBI went calling on the young man, a fundamentalist Muslim named Abdiwali Warsame who runs a Website which posts controversial stories & opinions of interest to Somalis.
Alex Altman of Time: "Just two weeks ago, Republican Senators were boasting about big plans to spend $46 billion over the next 10 years to enhance security on the southern border.... But as the bill moves to the House, the excess is beginning to look like a liability. The deal ... is unlikely to sway House Republicans who insist on securing the border before some 11 million undocumented immigrants can begin the naturalization process. And it is alienating allies who are vital to immigration reform's chances in the House, including a prominent Latino advocacy group and at least one Democratic Representative." ...
... New York Times Editors: "Mr. Boehner has a choice. He can let [immigration] reform go forward with bipartisan support -- House Republicans and Democrats together could pass a good bill. This would infuriate the hotheads in his caucus but save the Republican Party from itself. Or he can stand back and let his party kill reform. As the issue festers, a nation is watching to see whether the Republicans can work out their Steve King problem and do something difficult for their own good, and the country's."
Paul Krugman: "Someday, I suppose, something will turn up that finally gets us back to full employment. But I can't help recalling that the last time we were in this kind of situation, the thing that eventually turned up was World War II."
Erin McClam of NBC News: "... as legal scholars ... examine the [Supreme Court] term in full, they say the court leaned unmistakably to the right -- and came down consistently on the side of big business. The justices made it more difficult to bring class-action suits against companies, raised the bar for workers to win discrimination claims and protected pharmaceutical companies against people who say they were harmed by defective generic drugs."
In a compelling New York Times op-ed, Beth Merfish urges women who have had abortions to speak out. ...
... Washington Post Editors: "On Wednesday, just before the Fourth of July holiday, North Carolina Republicans added a slew of anti-abortion restrictions at the last minute to a bill otherwise concerned with banning Sharia law (already a questionable endeavor, but never mind that now). Any law that will limit women's access to abortion and to much other health care deserves a public hearing. Honesty about the true motivation of these laws would be welcome, too."
Another GOP 2012 Post-Mortem, This Time Featuring the Wisdom of Brownback. AP: " Kansas Gov. Sam Brownback said Friday that Republican presidential nominee Mitt Romney focused too narrowly on economic issues during last year's campaign and that the GOP needs to stick to its principles on social issues such as gay marriage and abortion."
Local News
Michael Barbaro & David Chen of the New York Times: "Eliot Spitzer, who resigned as governor of New York five years ago amid a prostitution scandal, is re-entering political life, with a run for the citywide office of comptroller and a wager that voters are ready to look past his previous misconduct." CW: Weiner for mayor & Spitzer for comptroller. What a lineup. Should we really embrace politicians because they have managed to refrain from sexually exploiting young women for a couple of years? ...
... Andy Borowitz: "In a stunning bid for a political comeback, former Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi said today that he was considering running for office in New York City.... Mr. Berlusconi said that he was unconcerned by rumors of a possible bid for office in New York by another former European politician, Dominique Strauss-Kahn."
Corey Johnson of the Center for Investigative Reporting: "Doctors under contract with the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation sterilized nearly 150 female inmates from 2006 to 2010 without required state approvals.... The women were signed up for the surgery while they were pregnant and housed at either the California Institution for Women in Corona or Valley State Prison for Women in Chowchilla, which is now a men's prison. Former inmates and prisoner advocates maintain that prison medical staff coerced the women, targeting those deemed likely to return to prison in the future." ...
... Update. Charles Pierce comments.
News Ledes
AP: "Teresa Heinz Kerry, the wife of U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry and heir to a ketchup company fortune, was hospitalized in critical but stable condition Monday, a day after showing symptoms consistent with a seizure, a person in close contact with the family said." ...
... Boston Globe Update: "The health of philanthropist Teresa Heinz Kerry has improved at Massachusetts General Hospital in Boston where the wife of Secretary of State John F. Kerry is now considered to be in fair condition, an improvement from the critical condition she was in on Sunday."
New York Times: "Egyptian soldiers opened fire on hundreds of unarmed supporters of ousted President Mohamed Morsi early Monday as they were praying before dawn outside the facility where he is believed to be detained, dozens of witnesses said. At least 43 civilians were killed, all or most of them shot, and more than 300 wounded, doctors and health officials said. Security officials said one police officer died as well. The massacre marked a sharp escalation in the confrontation between the generals who forced out the president and his Islamist supporters in the streets." ...
... The Al Jazeera story is here. The Al Jazeera liveblog is here. ...
... New York Times: "A party of ultraconservative Islamists that emerged as an unexpected political kingmaker in Egypt after the military's ouster of President Mohamed Morsi said on Monday that it was suspending its participation in efforts to form an interim government. A spokesman for the Al Nour party said its decision was a reaction to a 'massacre' hours earlier at an officers' club here in which security officials said more than 40 people had been killed." CW: the Times should take "massacre" out of quotation marks. It was a massacre, if news reports are accurate.
AP: "An air taxi crashed Sunday at a small Alaska airport, killing all 10 people on board and leaving the aircraft fully engulfed in flames before firefighters could get to it, authorities said." With video.
San Francisco Chronicle: "An autopsy was being conducted Sunday to determine whether one of the two teenage passengers killed on the Asiana Airlines flight had been run over by a San Francisco fire rig at the crash scene. The 16-year-old girl was found near the evacuation slide from the left side of Asiana Flight 214 that crashed Saturday while landing at San Francisco International Airport. The girl was not identified. San Francisco Fire Chief Joanne Hayes-White said Sunday that her injuries are consistent with having been run over."
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Reader Comments (29)
Re: Local News. That would've been during the Terminator's tenure. Dare I say it? You get what you vote for.
Far be it from me to suggest how women should feel about Weiner's tweets and Spitzer's extramarital doings, but when each took his fall there was not even an insinuation that either one's private choices had had a deleterious effect on his public service (as did , say, Jim McGreavey's, Paul Wolfowitz's, or Mark Sanford's).
"Client 9" is Alex Gibney's documentary about Eliot Spitzer and the people who wanted--needed--him to be brought down. Interestingly, some of those people from Wall Street have huge personal fortunes and were willing to finance unofficial investigations into Spitzer's private life. (In the clip, Rachel Maddow quotes The Chamber of Commerce spokesman calling Spitzer "the most intimidating thing in America in all of modern times.") http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mK0kOvbbngQ
Gibney makes the point that (I'm remembering here, so this may not be exact) of all the prostitution cases brought that year in New York, Spitzer's was the only one in which a "john" was mentioned by name. One might fairly think that Spitzer was targeted and that Lionel Barrymore's hands rubbed together with glee when Spitzer took the fall.
Weiner's tweets were in bad taste, which as far as I know isn't yet illegal. His denials, in retrospect, were more off-putting than the tweets themselves. I am far more nervous about the strength of his character than the strength of Spitzer's.
So, if women want to reject these men for sexism or bad taste, I can understand. However, as Eliot Spitzer has the stuff (or did) to be a strong candidate for President, I would be loath to reject any public service and advocacy he might offer.
@ Jack: I agree re: Spitzer. I saw that documentary and to me it was clear "they" wanted to bring him down. He is such a smart guy, it's a shame to waste all that potential. As far as Weiner (such an unfortunate name given his junk video) he, too, is a wily, aggressive politician and I do hope he can resume his career, but his performance still has that "ick" factor; I prefer to categorize it as desperately sophomoric and stupid. Yet, I would vote for both of them in a New York minute because I'm confident they would perform well. Their experience with shame has left them with perhaps a humbleness many politicians sorely lack.
Snowden on the other hand should be hung out to dry. Those records of his ranting, if accurate, are despicable. And they open up a whole new look at what makes this guy tick.
@Marie: Terrible news about the hacking. Any idea who might be behind it?
@Jack Mahoney: please understand that we're not talking about a couple of dudes who stepped out on their wives or sweethearts. We're not talking about men who had affairs with co-workers or neighbors -- the kinds of events that come naturally. In those cases, if I were the wife or girlfriend, I wouldn't like it; otherwise, it's not my business.
What we are talking about two elected public officials, one who participated in the sexual exploitation of young women & the other who regularly sent sexually-explicit photos & tweets to young women, possibly to teenagers. In neither case were these behaviors one-offs, which one might view as unfortunate anomalies. What they got caught doing represent patterns of behavior.
If you'd like your daughter to be at the receiving end of these patterns, then maybe it's okay for you to overlook their actions. On the other hand, maybe you should rethink you view of women.
There's quite a difference between "sexism and bad taste" and the active, repeated exploitation of young women and girls. It isn't pedophilia, but it's damned close. Women will never be valued as full human beings as long as society permits men to treat women as throw-away objects.
I don't see that it matters how these guys were exposed: whether it was powerful enemies (Spitzer) & Andrew Breitbart (Weiner), or an accident.
Spitzer & Weiner both lost their high-powered jobs, so it's easy to argue they paid the price of their actions. But if the public invites them to against act as representatives of the people, then the people are pretty depraved.
Marie
@P.D. Pepe: don't know the who, but I know the why. Someone sent me an e-mail that could be construed as a threat on my life, although I considered it just a wish I would die a painful & horrible death & not a specific threat of harm. The someone was a Snowden-Greenwald fan, & I guess he had an afterthought in which he decided it would be a good idea to delete a message in case it was illegal. The only way to delete it was to hack my site. In my comment yesterday, I mentioned Snowden's remark as being similar to remarks the hacker-guy made, and that comment -- which appeared for a while, suddenly disappeared. This comment may go, too. Again, the only way to change the content of my copy is to hack it.
Marie
Professor Roger Berkowitz has written an interesting piece on Hannah Arendt's coverage of the Eichmann trial (movie just out about her) and chilling shows "...how It is this thoughtless commitment that permits idealists to imagine themselves as heroes and makes them willing to employ technological implements of violence in the name of saving the world." The face of evil is often benign.
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/07/07/misreading-hannah-arendts-eichmann-in-jerusalem/
@CW; If prostitution was legal would you feel the same way about Spitzer? If women had the right to sell their bodies to those that wanted to purchase them in a legal exchange of services would that change your mind? Women and men have been selling comfort for a long time now. The exploitation of the trade comes from the management not the laborers.
What if Spitzer had an agreement with his wife about his sexual wants? We don't know, she could have condoned his paying for sex.
I am of the opinion that if prostitution was legalized the abuses and exploitation would be reduced.
Being in the sex for money trade is not one I would pick nor do I believe anyone should be forced into it but I understand the desires of humans well enough to believe the business profile will continue.
I see the behaviors of Weiner and Spitzer as Marie describes. When you are elected to positions whose purpose is to represent the public, the public trust should require a higher standard of behavior than your neighbor who steps out on his wife (which is not my business). Its difficult for me to see someone's character, or lack there of, as compartmentalized and somehow bisected. Especially when, those in public life, like Weiner and Spitzer, betray the person who is closest to them. Spitzer exploited his wife in that disgusting press conference just as he exploited the young women he paid to boink. Yes, I know she stood there with him and I can't tell you why, but that was exploitation on his part. Good on Jennie Sanford for refusing to be demeaned in front of the press.
I am quite sick of, beginning with Clinton, the whole meme of "being human and everyone makes a mistake." That's just a way to shirk responsibility for your behavior. Just don't do it in the first place. People elected to positions of public power have an obligation to maintain a tuned up, well oiled and working moral compass.
Depraved I may be, but Spitzer, in my estimation, did not exploit young girls. He paid for sex given willingly by a mature woman. And what goes on or did in that marriage is none of my business. Weiner, as I said is a different matter; his exposure was strange, and weird, but not directly harmful to those young girls who I understand were hardly victims. In his case, too, what goes on in his marriage is also none of my business. I find the exploitation of Wall Street, Corporations, Congress members that sell their souls a far more egregious business than some sexual liaison or exposure of bare chests and underwear, as tawdry as that may seem. And, yes, the legalization of prostitution is always an interesting discussion.
The sex scandal in the military is what makes my blood boil––now there's something to get riled up about. Talk about exploitation!
@Diane: Yes, and yes––But Not starting with Clinton and going back to FDR, Eisenhower, JFK, & LBJ––four of our esteemed presidents were heavy into extra martial affairs or "pussy pools" as someone coined LBJ's exploits. " People elected to positions of public power have an obligation to maintain a tuned up, well oiled and working moral compass." Don't we wish.
@JJG: I don't think prostitution should be illegal, but I do think it should be discouraged (among both women & men) as a terrible career choice. I feel the same way about pole dancing & working at Hooters. Sex and sex appeal are parts of who we are, but they are only parts. Men get that. Many young women, because of both antiquated sexual taboos & exploitative sexual mores, don't get that. These extremely mixed & highly-charged signals leave them confused & overly concerned about how to "manage" their bodies. When older men -- role models, if you will -- take advantage of girls' and women's confusion, an enlightened society should sanction them. That doesn't mean I think Spitzer & Weiner should never work again (Spitzer doesn't need to), & I do think each has something to contribute to society in the many years that lie ahead for them. But voters should not allow that contribution to include elected public office.
I had a polite argument with Betty Friedan years ago. She said women should support Ted Kennedy despite his long history of womanizing. (This was shortly after the William Kennedy Smith rape accusation. [Smith was acquitted; the New York Times editors were not.]) I disagreed. Kennedy's mistreatment of women affected his ability to be a good Senator. Ferinstance, there is a good chance we would not have Clarence Thomas sitting on the Supreme Court today if Kennedy had been able to mount an offense against Thomas's treatment of his subordinates. It was Kennedy, after all, who Borked Bork. But Kennedy couldn't pull a Bork because of the subject matter in the Thomas case. Kennedy not only had no credibility, he didn't want to call attention to his own personal history. Ergo, Justice Thomas.
IMO, Kennedy was not competent to represent me, & he did not. While Spitzer's & Weiner's bad behavior was -- as far as the record shows -- much less far-reaching than Kennedy's, I don't think any of them can fairly represent the public when they hold half of the public in such low regard.
I wouldn't vote for a racist if every racist remark & action he took was "legal," & I wouldn't vote for a sexploiter if every exploitative remark & action he took was legal. So the answer to your first question is yes.
Marie
@ P.D.Pepe: The "mature woman" whom Spitzer paid was 22 years old. She left home at 17. You can read about her in this New York Times story. Spitzer had liaisons with at least 7 other prostitutes, according to reports, & I'd be surprised if any of them was nearly as "mature" as Spitzer, who was 49 at the time the story came out. Certainly none was as powerful as he. These transactions were not, if you'll pardon the expression, tit for tat.
Please bear in mind that it wasn't only Spitzer or other johns who exploited these women. These young women worked for "escort services" which are not typically run by good-hearted nannies who take only a small percentage for "administrative fees." Cutting down on the influence of pimps is why I favor legalizing prostitution.
Arguing that other scandals are worse (they are!) is like asking the cop who pulls you over for speeding why he isn't going after the "real criminals." You're still gonna get that ticket. Whether it's a wealthy governor exploiting a destitute "working girl" or Wall Street tycoons selling their souls (at my expense), it's all about power -- the power of the haves over the have-nots. Deciding which type of exploitation is "worse" doesn't seem particularly productive.
Marie
@CW; I believe anyone in a position of power that takes advantage of that power to exploit or use another does not deserve my vote. The Kennedys abused their power by taking advantage of countless interns, awe-struck young women and anyone else that caught their fancy. Spitzer paid for sex. Apples and oranges as far as I'm concerned.
Just as an aside, One of Eliot Spitzer's opponents in the race for NYC Comptroller is his former madam.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/08/kristin-davis_n_3560659.html
What's that old line about what goes around....?
@JJG: I don't blame Max Cleland for paying for sex. Spitzer is an attractive, rich, powerful man who knew how prostitution rings operated -- as NY AG, he was in the business of shutting them down. He has no excuse.
Marie
@PD. Can't discount your point about FDR, Eisenhower, JFK, & LBJ. However, I believe the pathway to shirk responsibility, "he's only human" and the private vs public behavior arguments really gained purchase with Clinton. Previously, the whole thing was just covered up, which doesn't make it any better. But perhaps the cover-up method says more about what were acceptable and non-acceptable excuses for the public prior to Clinton.
@Marie: your comments: Duly noted and very right about the Kennedy/ Thomas situation. But you seem to put all the onus on the males––-yes, they are in many circumstances the ones in power, yet girls and women also have responsibility in these circumstances. When someone like Monica, very young, flashed her bottom to the President while serving up a pizza, then... There have always been females who "get off" by seducing or being seduced by powerful men or women. Our culture has changed drastically in terms of sexuality. When I went to high school there were very few girls who lost their virginity; nowadays there are very few that haven't. Even ads for lipstick feature very young girls pouting provocatively into the camera as are the ads for Victoria's Secret whose models look invitingly sexy and alluring. These come-ons are saying what to all those young girls who are cat nip for the powerful exploiters. What kinds of messages are we giving our young girls and what kinds have we been giving to our males?
From Kenneth Tynan's journal (he was the quintessential critic of yesteryear)
April 4, 1971: I must record here a story Marlene Dietrich told me several years ago. She was a friend, in the 30's, of Joseph P. Kennedy, and her daughter swam with his boys on the Riviera before the war. In the autumn of 1962 she was appearing in cabaret in Washington. Bobby and Teddy came to see her, but of course the President does not attend nightclubs; she was sad about this until she received a summons to have drinks at the White House the following Saturday at 6 p.m. She accepted, although at 7 p.m. She had to be at the Staler Hotel where the Jewish War Veterans were holding a dinner to honor her for her wartime work to aid Jewish refugees. So at 6 she arrived at the White House and was shown by a press attaché into the President's sanctum. A bottle of German wine was cooling in an ice bucket: "The President remembered that when he last dined with you in New York you said this was your favorite wine." The attaché then poured her a glass and withdrew. The clock reached 6.15 before JFK loped in, kissed her, poured himself some wine, took her out on the balcony and talked about Lincoln. "I hope you aren't in a hurry," he said. Marlene explained that, alas, 2,000 Jews were waiting to give her a plaque at 7 p.m. And it was now 6.30..."That doesn't give us much time, does it?" said JFK, looking straight into her eyes. Marlene confesses that she likes powerful men and enjoys hanging their scalps on her belt. So she looked straight back and said: "No, Jack, I guess it doesn't." With that he took her glass and led the way out into the presidential bedroom. And then, in M.D's words,"I remembered about his bad back–-that wartime injury. I looked at him and he was already undressing. He was unwinding rolls of bandage from around his middle––he looked like Laocoön and that snake, you know? Now, I'm an old lady, and I said to myself: I'd like to sleep with the President, sure, but I'll be goddamned if I'm going to be on top!"
But it seems everything was OK; JFK took the superior position; and it was all over sweetly and very soon. "And then he went off to sleep. I looked at my watch and it was 6.50. I got dressed and shook him because I didn't know my way around the place and I couldn't just call for a cab. I said 'Jack–-wake up! 2,000 Jews are waiting! For Christ's sake get me out of here!" So he grabbed a towel and wrapped it round his waist and took me along this corridor to an elevator. He told the elevator man to get me a car to the Statler immediately––standing right there in his towel, without embarrassment, as if it was an everyday event––which in his life it probably was. Just as I was getting into the elevator, he said: 'There's just one thing I'd like to know. Did you ever make it with my father?' "No, Jack, I answered truthfully, I never did.' 'Well,' he said, 'that's one place I'm in first.' Then the lift door closed and I never saw him again."
@P.D.Pepe: I hold Clinton wholly responsible for the Lewinsky affair. I'm aware that she "started it," but Clinton was the POTUS & more than twice her age. She was an unpaid 22-year-old ditzy intern. To suggest that she was an equal in the affair doesn't make sense to me. Clinton had a responsibility to tell her to behave herself, just as a mother has a responsibility not to let her 3-year-old pig out on cookies & ice cream.
If you read one of my previous remarks, you'll see that I place much of the onus on "society" for the way the Monica Lewinskys & Ashley Dupres see themselves & make choices based on their loathsome self-images. Yes, yes, we're all the captains of our own ships, blah-blah, but when you'll sailing in a sea that urges you to drown yourself because you're worthless except for your physical attributes, well.
I don't know if you're trying to divert attention from my original premise or not, but I don't see where the age a girl loses her virginity has much to do with it. Making the choice to have a sexual relationship with a schoolmate is a whole different matter from having to sell your body or from succumbing to a powerful man (Monica thought Clinton was going to marry her, ferchrissake.) The first can be (but isn't necessarily) about personal empowerment & mutual affection, whereas the second hardly ever is either.
"Pretty Woman" is a work of fiction; the john is seldom a rich, handsome Pygmalion who falls for the whore. These are sordid deals where the prostitute is not a winner -- and is often in danger.
The idea that prostitution is okay because the women (or boys) are "mature" (sometimes) and "consent" to sex seems stunningly naive to me. JJG writes it off as "Spitzer paid for sex." I'm actually shocked (and I don't shock easily) & certainly dismayed that many readers seem to think it is quite all right for politicians to exploit young women, perhaps as long as the politicians are not hypocritical moralists.
Would you think it was fine for Spitzer to dress up some "elderly black gentlemen" in slave livery to serve at his fancy townhouse? Would you think it was okay if he "jokingly" addressed them with racial epithets? It's true the elderly black gentlemen would have taken the jobs, but would you hold them "responsible" because they should not have allowed him to demean them even though they needed the work? I doubt it. Except for the Paula Deens of this world, most of us are appalled by the degradation of ethnic minorities, but Reality Chex readers -- both women & men -- seem to think it's okay to degrade women.
We may have come a long way, but we still have a long way to go.
P.S. If you think prostitute is just a job, here are a few facts, backed up by documentation, that may dissuade a few of you. Some of the studies are fairly dated; please save your breath trying to convince me that the business is all better now.
Marie
@CW: Let's try this: Personally, I don't like Snowden or Greenwald. Greenwald is still in his lawyer/advocate mode, which makes for bad journalism. Michael Tomasky he ain't. As for Snowden, as someone else said, he's no Bradley Manning. I think he's a self-centered twit.
Of course, Daniel Ellsberg
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/daniel-ellsberg-nsa-leaker-snowden-made-the-right-call/2013/07/07/0b46d96c-e5b7-11e2-aef3-339619eab080_story_1.htmli
thinks that there's no way that Snowden will get a fair trial in the US, and that he was right to flee. Ellsberg implies that Snowden isn't very likable, but ignore that and appreciate the public service he rendered.
@Marie: Please understand that I, too, blame society––my virginity example was meant to highlight the changing sexual mores in our culture––what kinds of messages are we giving our females by promoting sexual come-ons as some of my examples indicated. And you are correct in expecting Clinton to have acted parentally and given her a swift boot in that bottom, but we know Clinton's weakness in finding love in all the wrong people and places. That expectation was just not viable. And no, I was not suggesting that he and Monica were equal in that affair––far from it. What I was suggesting is that Monica was a player and has to take responsibility. And I, for one, DO NOT "think it is quite all right for politicians to exploit young women, perhaps as long as the politicians are not hypocritical moralists." And please––"I DO NOT think it ok for anyone to degrade women. Perhaps I have been clumsy in voicing my opinions, but to be very clear my above negatives are felt strongly.
@CW; I read the NYT profile of the young woman in question and I did not get the impression she had to sell her body; you write, "whole different matter from having to sell your body... "; she was twenty-two and chose to sell her body for a handsome price. How much she got of the thousand dollar an hour contract is not stated but I'm sure she did better than minimum wage. In any case the profile and the photos did not lead me to believe she was innocent to the wicked ways of the world.
Sorry I shocked you but "Spitzer paid for sex." is a fair description of the reality.
Yes, Spitzer is an attractive, rich, powerful man, who on a given night could find a willing sex partner in any number of bars or clubs in NYC. His choosing to pay for sex might have been a matter of convenience rather than another motive.
Now, that you brought up his breaking the law as a elected official and a member of court, that does change my thinking on the matter and I agree voting for someone who breaks the law because of personal desire is not a good idea.
@JJG: holy shit. Here's what you learned about Ashley Dupre from the NYT piece I linked: "she left a broken home at 17"; she was sexually abused as a child; she didn't seem to know her biological father; she seems to have dropped out of school after her sophomore year in high school; she lived in 8 different cities in a few years; she has used drugs & been "broke & homeless"; she "learned what it was like to have everything and lose it, again and again, & "learned what it was like to wake up one day and have the people you care about most gone"; she was unable to sleep because of the "stress of the [Spitzer] case"; she was afraid people would think she was a monster; she didn't know how she could pay her rent since the man she was living with left her after she found out he had two children. Some of this is by her own account & some by her mother's, so it might not all be true.
But it is almost a stereotypical picture of a child who turns to prostitution & continues to lead a terribly difficult life.
You write that "she was twenty-two and chose to sell her body for a handsome price. How much she got of the thousand dollar an hour contract is not stated but I'm sure she did better than minimum wage. In any case the profile and the photos did not lead me to believe she was innocent to the wicked ways of the world."
So, yeah, let's blame the hooker.
I despair.
Marie
@CW; You mistake my logic. For me, there is no blame. Or if there is it's on Spitzer for using a call girl service that is illegal in the state he represents. Hell's bells, I believe marriage is a contract involving sex and property but nobody gets to leave until the divorce is final. I think history backs me up on that too.
@JJG: very neat rationalization. Dupre was a well-paid hooker, so she should be able to take care of herself. No passing judgment. We're all independent agents responsible for our own actions. After all, not every sexually-abused 17-year-old runaway ends up as a prostitute. Some get good solid jobs at McDonalds or WalMart & go on to lead exemplary lives.
Vote for Spitzer!
Marie
Yep Marie, I get it. Spitzer is a son-of-a- bitch and a dog to boot. But ,pray tell, who else is going after those nice fellows and girls on Wall Street who have been screwing all of us financially for the last 15 years. Seems like the nice, polite, young family men and ladies tend to see enforcement of financial laws as too risky to their social status and comfortable lives.
My Dad's words of wisdom on the subject " If you are going to catch rats, you need yourself a good rat dog".
@Roger Henry. The NYC comptroller "has two main functions. One is to preside over the investments of municipal pension funds, which gives the Comptroller a lot of power. The other is to audit city agencies. The comptroller basically serves as a check and balance on the mayor and the city council and the other branches of government."
That is, "Sheriff of Wall Street" is not in the job description. That is not to say that Spitzer wouldn't try to add that function. He's said he wants to "re-imagine" the position. And whoever becomes mayor would likely prefer Spitzer's going after Wall Street than doing his actual job, which is to go after the mayor & council.
Marie
Marie; I can understand how you feel about Ashley Dupre but read what Wikipedia has to say instead of just relying on the NYT. After all, on what other story would you accept their version unsupported?
High class prostitution, 'call girls', almost seems like a victimless crime. The prostitute earns good money working for a 'madam' who skims a little off the girl's earnings in return for advertising and the John gets to sleep with a girl who wouldn't ordinarily give him the time of day. But its foundations lie with people who take young teens and drug and beat and gang rape them into subservient sex slaves. As with drugs, you cannot prosecute the pimps at the bottom while giving the madams a free pass. As attorney general Spitzer knew that but decided one law for me, another for the people. Hardly a recommendation to vote for him.
Who'd a thunk when I dropped in, there'd be a whole discussion about prostitution. Anne McClintock edited a thoughtful series of articles about prostitution and sex workers. I thought it was thought provoking.
Ambitious people want the accoutrements of ambition. Is Diane Feinstein all that much different than Jeff Sessions in terms of behavior? The seemy underbelly of democracy is that the people we elect to represent us only too well represent us, sometimes.
Using a single issue as an up or down vote on some politician becomes a poor idea when the choice is between Bill Clinton and Larry Craig. Both of whom were retained by their wives.