;)
The Conversation -- August 2, 2023
At long last, it dawns on Mike that Donald is not qualified to be president*: ~~~
Marie: Last night all the serious teevee pundits were saying what a sad day it was for America. Me? I'm with Hillary (thanks to Patrick for the link): ~~~
Alright, who made this?! 😂🤣 pic.twitter.com/sEXaRPWkum
— ᗰᗩƳᖇᗩ ℙ𝕙𝕠𝕥𝕠𝕘𝕣𝕒𝕡𝕙𝕪 (@LePapillonBlu2) August 1, 2023
United States of America v. Donald J. Trump
The attack on our nation's Capitol on Jan. 6, 2021, was an unprecedented assault on the seat of American democracy. It was fueled by lies, lies by the defendant. -- Jack Smith, August 1 ~~~
~~~ Devlin Barrett, et al., of the Washington Post: "A grand jury indicted ... Donald Trump on Tuesday for a raft of alleged crimes in his brazen efforts to overturn Joe Biden's election victory -- the latest legal and political aftershock stemming from the riot at the U.S. Capitol two and a half years ago. The four-count, 45-page indictment accuses Trump ... of conspiring to defraud the United States, conspiring to obstruct an official proceeding, attempting to obstruct an official proceeding and conspiring against people's civil right to have their vote counted.... 'Despite having lost, the Defendant was determined to remain in power,' the indictment charges, accusing Trump of unleashing a blizzard of false claims about purported mass voter fraud and then trying to get state, local and federal officials to act to change the vote results. 'These claims were false, and the Defendant knew that they were false,' the indictment states. 'In fact, the Defendant was notified repeatedly that his claims were untrue -- often by the people on whom he relied for candid advice on important matters, and who were best positioned to know the facts -- and he deliberately disregarded the truth.'" The AP's story is here. The New York Times story is here.
According to MSNBC, Trump has been summoned to appear in court Thursday. Update: at 4:00 pm ET.
@6:30 pm ET, MSNBC reports that AG Merrick Garland will speak within the hour. Update: Here's what Garland said, which was not much. ~~~
~~~ Rebecca Shabad of NBC News: "In brief remarks outside an event in Philadelphia [Tuesday night], Attorney General Merrick Garland said that career employees of the Justice Department 'engaged in what has become the largest investigation in our history. In order to underline the department's commitment to accountability and independence, Mr. Smith and his team of experienced principled career agents and prosecutors have followed the facts and the law wherever they lead,' Garland ... told reporters. 'Any questions about this matter will have to be answered by the filings made.'" From the NBC News liveblog.
Alan Feuer & Maggie Haberman of the New York Times: "... Donald J. Trump was indicted on Tuesday in connection with his widespread efforts to overturn the 2020 election following a sprawling federal investigation into his attempts to cling to power after losing the presidency to Joseph R. Biden Jr. The indictment was filed by the special counsel Jack Smith in Federal District Court in Washington. It accuses Mr. Trump of three conspiracies: one to defraud the United States, a second to obstruct an official government proceeding and a third to deprive people of civil rights provided by federal law or the Constitution.... The indictment said Mr. Trump had six co-conspirators, but it did not name them." This is a liveblog. ~~~
~~~ Adam Goldman: "Prosecutors said that Trump and his co-conspirators devised fraudulent slates of electors in seven states: Arizona, Georgia, Michigan, Nevada, New Mexico, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin. Some of the fake electors, the indictment said, were 'tricked' into participating in the scheme." ~~~
~~~ Ben Protess: "It's hard to imagine a more consequential case against a former president." MB: What makes it especially consequential is that for the first time in U.S. history (as far as I know) the indictment charges a president* for criminal acts committed while in office, answering the question, "Can a president* be held responsible for abuse of power?" Apparently so. ~~~
~~~ Charlie Savage: From the indictment: "... on the pretext of baseless fraud claims, the defendant pushed officials in certain states to ignore the popular vote; disenfranchise millions of voters; dismiss legitimate electors; and ultimately, cause the ascertainment of and voting by illegitimate electors in favor of the defendant." Savage: The indictment alleges Trump is guilty of "recruiting fake electors in swing states won by Biden, trying to use the power of the Justice Department to fuel election conspiracy lies, pressuring Vice President Mike Pence to delay the certification of the election or reject legitimate electors, and then exploiting the disruption caused by the Jan. 6 riot to redouble 'efforts to levy false claims of election fraud and convince members of Congress to further delay the certification based on those claims.'" ~~~
~~~ Luke Broadwater: "... the Justice Department charged Mr. Trump with four federal crimes, including deprivation of rights under the color of law. The 45-page indictment read like a summarized version of the select committee's sprawling 845-page tome detailing Mr. Trump's myriad attempts to stay in office."
~~~ Maggie Astor: "Trump likened the indictment to the actions of 'Nazi Germany in the 1930s, the former Soviet Union, and other authoritarian, dictatorial regimes,' in a statement on Truth Social. [MB: Projection!] He again accused the Justice Department of corruption and said, 'These un-American witch hunts will fail and President Trump will be re-elected to the White House so he can save our Country from the abuse, incompetence, and corruption that is running through the veins of our Country at levels never seen before.'" ~~~
~~~ William Rashbaum: "The prosecutors charged that Trump and his co-conspirators told copious lies about election fraud. These 'prolific lies' included 'dozens of specific claims that there had been substantial fraud in certain states,' they said, and 'that large numbers of dead, non-resident, non-citizen, or otherwise ineligible voters had cast ballots or that voting machines had changed votes for the defendant to votes for Biden.'"
** Here's the indictment against Trump, via CNN. The New York Times has an annotated indictment here. ~~~
~~~ Indictment Code: Andrew Weissmann guesses Conspirator 1 = Rudy Giuliani; Conspirator 2 = John Eastman; Conspirator 3 = Sidney Powell; Conspirator 4 = Jeff Clark; & Conspirator 5 = Kenneth Chesebro; not sure about Conspirator 6. MB: On the other hand, Weissmann mixed up COS Mark Meadows & pence's COS Marc Short & made some false assumptions based on that misreading. ~~~
~~~ Mystery Man. In a New York Times article identifying five of the conspirators, Alan Feuer writes, "... co-conspirator 6 is described as a 'political consultant' who helped to devise and implement the fake elector scheme. It could apply to several people who worked closely with Mr. Trump after the election." The Washington Post also cannot identify this person. CNN can't decide, either. MB: There are so many possibilities.
NBC News live updates are here.
~~~ ** CNN is reporting on-air that Trump has been indicted in four counts in the election interference case. The key charge is "conspiracy to defraud the United States." Jack Smith is expected to make a public statement within the hour. (It's now 5:40 pm ET). The other charges include "corruptly obstruct an official proceeding," and "conspiracy against the right to vote." This is a 45-page speaking indictment with new info. Six co-conspirators are designated by not named; they are not (yet) indicted.~~~
~~~ The judge assigned to the case is U.S. District Judge Tanya Chutkan. She is an Obama appointee with a background as a public defender.
Peter Baker of the New York Times: "At the core of the United States of America v. Donald J. Trump is no less than the viability of the system constructed during [the] summer [of 1787] in Philadelphia. Can a sitting president spread lies about an election and try to employ the authority of the government to overturn the will of the voters without consequence? The question would have been unimaginable just a few years ago, but the Trump case raises the kind of specter more familiar in countries with histories of coups and juntas and dictators. In effect, Jack Smith ... charged Mr. Trump with one of the most sensational frauds in the history of the United States, one 'fueled by lies' and animated by the basest of motives, the thirst for power.... The indictment wove together all the intrigue between the Nov. 3, 2020, election and the Jan. 20, 2021, inauguration into a damning tale of a president who pushed in seemingly every possible way stop the handover of the White House to the challenger who beat him.... Now the justice system and the electoral system will engage in a 15-month race to see which will decide his fate first -- and the country's. The real verdict on the Trump presidency is still to come."
Annals of "Journalism," Ctd. Marie: As I was clicking through the "dial" Tuesday evening, I noticed that PBS News Hour was on. "Hey, let's see how the 'independent journalists' at PBS are covering the Trump indictment story. They weren't. Instead, there appeared on my teevee an extended story about how Ohio is handling the expenditure of funds allocated for anti-smoking programs. Not that this long-running tale isn't important, but I would not call it the news of the day. Rather, it reminded me of the much-ridiculed 1950s BBC stories about various rodents and rare animals that were the stock subjects of early British taxpayer-supported broadcast teevee. (In fairness to PBS, I believe they did open with a report on the indictment.)
New York. Graham Kates of CBS News: "New York Attorney General Letitia James' office says it is ready to proceed with a trial stemming from its $250 million lawsuit claiming ... Donald Trump, two of his children and his company engaged in widespread fraud.... The lawsuit is seeking $250 million and sanctions that would effectively cease the company's operations in New York.... Trump, his sons Eric and Donald Trump Jr., and Ivanka Trump have all sat for depositions in the case. During Trump's first deposition, in August 2022, before the lawsuit was filed, he invoked his Fifth Amendment right against self incrimination more than 400 times.... The case is scheduled to go to trial on Oct. 2, a date the the judge in the case, Arthur Engoron, previously described as 'set in stone.' Engoron has rejected repeated attempts by Trump attorneys to push that date back."
Michigan. Neil Vigdor, et al., of the New York Times: "Matthew DePerno, a key orchestrator of efforts to help ... Donald J. Trump try to overturn the 2020 election in Michigan and an unsuccessful candidate for state attorney general last year, was arraigned on four felony charges on Tuesday, according to documents released by D.J. Hilson, the special prosecutor handling the investigation. The charges against Mr. DePerno, which include undue possession of a voting machine and a conspiracy to gain unauthorized access to a computer or computer system, come after a nearly yearlong investigation in one of the battleground states that cemented the election of Joseph R. Biden Jr. as president. Former State Representative Daire Rendon was also charged with two crimes, including a conspiracy to illegally obtain a voting machine and false pretenses." The AP's story is here.
How to Respond to Trump's Defenders. Marie: (1) If someone tells you that Trump didn't commit any crimes (for whatever reason), ask him if he's read the indictment. If the answer is "no," politely tell him he can't possibly know what he's talking about. Tell him the indictment is available online.
(2) If someone says Trump was just exercising his First Amendment right to free speech -- as apparently Fox "News" stars & guests are currently arguing -- explain that (a) the indictment states outright that Trump has a right to lie to the public, but when he (b) switches from false statements to criminal conduct -- which the indictment spells out -- he's a criminal. That is, you can tell a lie, but you can't act on it; e.g., "I think the Vice President has the power to reject slates of electors" is protected speech. Conspiring to manufacture and submit fake slates of electors is not. You can say you would like to rob the bank; you can't rob the bank.
(3) If someone says the whole case is a hoax devised by Joe Biden to defeat Trump in 2024, (a) tell him Joe Biden didn't pick Jack Smith, that Smith was chosen for his independence. When that fails to convince your acquaintance, (b) tell him all of the witnesses cited in the indictment are Republicans, many of them appointed to their jobs by Donald Trump. They all voted for Donald Trump, they wanted him to win, many worked to re-elect him.
New Jersey. Tracy Tulley of the New York Times reports on the sudden death of the state's Lt. Gov. Sheila Oliver.
Share Article
Reader Comments (21)
Funny, All the co-conspirators identified seem to be white.
@Ken Winkes: Uh-huh. And they're all white Republicans. With the exception of Powell (and perhaps Conspirator 6, whose identity we don't know), they're all white male Republicans. It's terrible how unfa-a-a-air the justice system is to white male Republicans.
No soft on Fatty peddler of squishy euphemisms is Jack Smith. NY Times, are you listening?
It’s not fabrications, falsehoods, fibs, prevarications, dissimulations, distortions, equivocations, exaggerations, half-truths, taradiddles, or jive-ass untruths.
The word is LIES. Lies, and more lies, told by lying liars.
Jesus! Finally someone with balls.
There’s a new sheriff in town. Merrick, you can go now.
Harvard constitutional law professor Laurence Tribe called the indictment against Donald Trump “brilliant,” but said there’s one factor that could render the whole thing moot: Timing.
“I do think that [Attorney General] Merrick Garland did not proceed as fast as he might have,” Tribe said on MSNBC on Tuesday evening.
As a result, the case against Trump over his actions leading up to the Jan. 6 attack on the U.S. Capitol could drag on into the next presidency.
“If the next presidency is held either by Donald Trump or by one of his acolytes or by virtually any Republican, there is the horrible prospect that this will all be wiped away,” he said. “And that it will be relegated to a kind of a historic footnote.”
Tribe said it’s a reminder of how “vulnerable and fragile” the legal system is.
“We have a system that might go too slowly, that might be too opaque,” he said. “And a system that is not at all guaranteed to triumph over politics.”
This last sentence of Tribe's is something many of us have grumbled about. But putting that aside–--for now–--let's toast our man Smith for his jackboot schumpting of Fatty–--finally!!!!!
Marie: It appears that PBS news tapes their program early therefore any breaking news that comes later in the day doesn't get covered until the next day.
I get the critical distinction between lying and acting on those lies, tho it seems to me we often willingly blur that line.
I'm wondering how different yesterday's indictments of the Pretender differ from much of his administration. He lied nearly every time he opened his mouth and much of his behavior and many of his administration's actions were based on those lies. The rapists at the border, his statements and actions re: Covid, and his environmental policies and treatment of the fossil fuel industry come immediately to mind. That is, he acted on those lies.
Am also wondering if the same rules might apply to all businesses? Telling a lie about about a product or price is OK? But profiting from it is not?
And how does caveat emptor play into all of this?
Even worse for Idiotstick, the randomly assigned judge is a Black(!) Woman(!!) appointed by Obama(!!!) who doesn't fk around, won't seriously entertain any motions to disqualify based on the just-mentioned factors, and will move with alacrity to get this case tried before next November.
@RockyGirl: I noticed that, too. As it turns out, both of the judges in Trump's federal criminal trials are minority women, although of course Miss Aileen is a loose Cannon. Trump won't be happy having to mumble, "Yes, your Honor," to either one of them.
We'll see how Trump attacks Judge Chutkan. I hope if he makes any threatening remarks, she'll revoke bail and throw him in the D.C. jailhouse with some of those nice prisoners he likes to sing with.
Marcy Wheeler posits that Co-Conspirator 6 is Mike Roman.
Maybe I get it now. Further reading of the indictments tells me, the Pretender did not have was a right to use “unlawful means of discounting legitimate votes and subverting the election results.”
So it's not the acting on the lie; it's acting unlawfully on the lie...
And in the context of our society, there's apparently a lot of acting on lies that is lawful....
This question has probably been asked, but I haven't seen an answer anywhere: As Trump will be tried in court, what's to stop the Court at the end of the road from overturning everything, no matter how damning the evidence? I know that Trump can count on Thomas and Alito, and assuming that Roberts considers his legacy and declines to overturn open-and-shut convictions, that will leave three Justices to decide whether their duty is to the US or to the Federalist Society. I don't see this ending well.
@Jack Mahoney: Of course you're right. Trump will appeal any case he loses. Assuming he is convicted, and loses an appellate decision, the Supreme Court is the next step. The court can refuse to hear his appeal, as it did with a couple of his phony election fraud cases, but you know they will hear a case that would otherwise put a former president* in jail.
Of course Trump could be acquitted at the trial level. If he is not acquitted and a Republican becomes president, it's likely the Republican would pardon him. If he becomes president, I suppose he would effectively pardon himself by making his veep prez-for-a-day, during which day the very-short-time prez would pardon him.
And yesterday, I heard Jen Psaki say on the teevee that President Biden is all into bipartisanship, so he too might pardon Trump. Fortunately, I was barefoot at the time, so nothing to throw at the tube.
Here’s a thought…
Will the Fat Liar testify on his own behalf at the upcoming trial? He’s quick to jump on his broke-ass antisocial media thingie to proclaim total innocence and declare everything he did was “perfect” and all claims to the contrary, despite mountains of evidence, are efforts by evil Joe Biden to steal the election from poor innocent Donald.
The real question is whether his lawyers would let him. I’m guessing absolutely no way in hell not. Getting on the stand and swearing to tell the truth (will the Bible he swears on instantly combust?) would open him up to cross examination by Deranged Jack Smith, so not very likely. Also, will the judge slap a gag order on the Orange Monster to keep him from lying about the trial and begging armed MAGAts to storm the courthouse and free their Dear Leader?
Finally, I know that federal trials are not televised, but this one should be. The American people deserve to see this treasonous monkey tried for his crimes against them. I don’t know the process whereby such a decision would be made, but I’m guessing that a green light to televise Fatty Trial of the Month would be quickly sent to the Supreme Court which likely would issue a quick “No”.
Nonetheless, the Fat Fascist will have his day in court. Now the question is, can he be convicted and sentenced before he steals the next election and declares himself innocent of all charges, then sets a truly weaponized DoJ on his tormentors?
In the meantime watching this fat fuck twist in the wind will be schadenfreude on steroids.
The question of a pardon is a serious one. I have zero doubt that should Biden lose the election, whether to Trump or some other R traitor, a pardon will be the first thing in the agenda.
But a pardon by Biden????
Nonononono. Did I mention “no”?
Look, Ford’s pardon of crooked Tricky Dick is partially responsible for this mess. Had Justice pursued that asshole after he cut and ran, it would have demonstrated that no one is above the law, not even a president or ex-president who declares haughtily that “When the president does it, it’s not illegal”.
Putting Nixon on trial would have demonstrated that we, as a nation, demand nothing less than the rule of law applied to all citizens. Then we wouldn’t be having conversations about how terrible it would be to put the current R crook on trial.
Historians, start writing your briefs for Biden. No matter how partisan it might look to some, if Trump is convicted, he serves his sentence. As other career criminals often say “If you can’t do the time, don’t do the crime.”
From the Wiki
The Latin phrase " Quid sit futurum cras, fuge quaerere! " means in English : " Be careful not to ask what tomorrow will bring!"
It comes from the Latin poet Horace (Carmina 1:9:13).
Background
The background of this saying has to mean that man should live his life and that he should accept every single day as a gift . In the sense of this quote, he should be grateful for every day and not worry about what will happen the next day.
------------------
In my high school latin class we would have translated that (when Brother Benignus was out of the room) as "The future may be crass, fuggedaboudit!"
Sufficient unto the day is DiJiT's current evil, it is enough to chase him down even if in the end he dies before his appeals run out.
I have seen two threads related to R funding, one saying that many state party organizations are nearly broke, and one saying that t**** had amassed lots of money and has spent most of it.
Has t**** siphoned off a lot of money that used to go to local and state organizations?
In all the blah blah I listened to this morning, talking about how t can still run for president* even if convicted, nobody brought up how R leaders had their opportunity to be rid of the jerk in the second impeachment.
The r party, bankrupt in so many ways.
AK: the question of a television presentation was bandied about last night ––-at first someone said it would be up to John Roberts but Jill Winebanks said that a D.C. judge could decide. We need it to be televised---if we could do it with Watergate and OJ. we better well damn do it for one of the most important in history.
Funny meme.
Breaking news!
A friend just texted me the identity of co-conspirator no. 6:
Ginni Thomas!
Hahaha. Hey, she was best buds with Eastman. But should that be the case, I have no doubt that the Traitor Court would convene a special session and “discover”, using their best originalist black and white magic (turn around and touch the ground), that the Justice Department is unconstitutional and must be immediately disbanded. Oh, but not before sentencing Hunter Biden to the gas chamber.
When you think about it, the number of co-conspirators, right down to state levels where Trumpbots were scheming to “fix” the election outcome with slates of fake electors, must number in the thousands.
I wonder if Harlan Crow would dispatch his billionaire luxury jet to fly Gin-gin off to some foreign tropical island to save her treasonous ass from prosecution if it turned out that she was being investigated by Justice. I suppose Clarence would have to issue opinions favorable to ol’ Harlan until he was pushing daisies.
Have you guys read the indictment? I’ve read a number of indictments that scream “soporific” (I guess that should be whisper “soporific”, but you get the idea).
This thing is a page turner. And like any good writer, Smith makes absolutely clear what this is all about:
Trump and his buddies again and again, employed…
“…dishonesty, fraud, and deceit to impair, obstruct, and defeat the lawful federal government function by which the results of the
presidential elections are collected, counted, and certified by the federal government.”
“Dishonesty, fraud, and deceit”. This damning trio is repeated again and again, as are the words “impair, obstruct, and defeat”.
The next thing you recognize is the seemingly endless scams Trump and his co-conspirators dreamed up and threw at the wall. For such a lazy motherfucker Trump was front and center on what seems to have been an hourly basis, directing his criminal conspiracy and sending his treasonous myrmidons out to screw the country.
Fake electors, dead people voting, non-citizens voting, machines that switched “Trump” to “Biden”, drop box scandals, demands that state legislatures convene to throw out votes, the perfect phone call, ad hominem attacks against election workers, promises of proof that never materialized, demands that state election officials scream “fraud” followed by promises that “we’ll take it from there”.
Our electoral history offers plenty of stories about cheap, corrupt politicians, but compared to these traitors, that stuff was like a grenade to the Hiroshima bomb.
Had a Democrat tried a single one of these ploys, Fox would be screaming for the death penalty. But hours after the indictment was released, Fox executives met with that Fat Fuck, ostensibly to get him to waddle on to the debate stage (money, money, money…after all, not even the MAGAts will tune in to watch DeSantis, Haley, and Christie throw cream pies at each other). But who doubts the Fox guys were offering to attack Jack Smith and to blame Biden for everything if only the Orange Monster would show up for a Fox televised debate.
You know what? I don’t give collected colon droppings for any of that. The very first paragraph of the latest Trump indictment says it all:
United States of America v Donald J Trump.
At least there still is a USA. That might not be the case if this crooked traitor slithers back into the White House.
Looking at the so far proposed agendas of the Fat Man and Mr White Boots, the main difference I can see is that DeSantis has not promised an administration of retribution and revenge.
Other than that, put the two of them in a barrel and roll it down a hill; there will always be a SOB on top.
That said, going into campaign 2024 I am deeply afraid for my country.
Bobby Lee,
You and me both, brother.